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POLL: Experience Loss on Death
In order to set up a poll for this kind of information, I had to create a new topic. I know some good ideas were floated in the last one and so I'm only going to lock it and ask that people continue with ideas here.
PLEASE DO NOT FLAME. Take the time to state your point, the best way that you can, and move on. Let the GMs gather information without having to sift through pages of hate.
TL;DR:
How do you feel about experience on death? Should it be scaled? Should it be flat across the board? Should it be flat across the board after a certain level? Should it change at all? - and for each, why?Background:
Lineage has always had a large penalty on death. Historically it was a massive >10% experience loss (this is during the dial-up internet days, you got a phone call and lost a night or more of work). It was later scaled to reference your level past 45 (as it somewhat is here). Presently at very high levels, death doesn't have much meaning. PVP points are a focus of many people, but there are some thoughts and feelings that the PVP points are pulling away from the actual purpose of a fight, not just to defeat your 'enemy', but to cost them something too (time and adena).Aden church was implemented long ago to help combat the 'punishment' of death. The ability to pay a fee and buy back a portion of the experience lost. There is some desire to have something of this here as well, as this would be a form of an 'adena sink', which is an issue all private servers share - Increased adena drop rate = lots of adena = problems with inflation = devaluation of adena (to some degree or another).
Objective:
The objective is to increase the value of a kill, and make people more concerned about dying, to not just throw themselves at something until it works, more to what it was on the live server, hoping to increase the thrill of a fight and the pushing of a kill, and force people to work together better and better preserve themselves rather than people's concerns about kill-death-ratios, and shying away.PVP:
From a PVP point of view, costing someone time and adena in a kill had value. Right now, there isn't much you've cost anyone, the time to recouperate that loss is next to nothing, and all you've got for it is a notch in some theoretical points that have no value except to some. When killing a player, and knowing that you cost them some adena and time, it pushed that thrill of doing so, and desire to do it again. It also increased the desire for vengance, when people would come together and hunt their enemies back, in order to get that couter-kill on them.
Teamwork, that's what it was all about. That's what this game is all about. No one is saying you shouldn't be able to solo, you can, but it is called Lineage The Blood Pledge for a reason.
PVE:
From a PVE stand point, all aspects of players shouldn't just throw their lives at something until it works. Lineage mechanics aren't exactly ultra-complicated, but neither are they so simple. Some bosses are gated by capability (Example: Thebes bosses having huge hit-point regeneration that needs to be overcome to actually do damage). Some bosses, in the future, will require mutliple attempts to sort out, while it shouldn't be 'punishing' per se, there should be an aspect of care taken, to overcome challenges, rather than just constantly resurrecting - this could be looked at by locking resurrection in a boss zone, so this point may not be as concerning as others. I'll leave this as it is here.
Servers change over time. The GMs are extremely cautious and careful, and the reason they take their time in implementing things and making decisions is that they care enough to want to know as much as possible about something before they do it. For this reason, they want your feedback here in a poll, and in chat.
Just because we're having this discussion doesn't mean things are going to change over night - or at all. We've had a similar discussion to this in the past and have shelved it.
There is lots of content to come, this item has just come up with force in the summer - probably due to a perceived need for progress, when the GMs have been working hard to try and give us progress and we've been given them problems *cough cough*
Grind on!
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
plz dont make it worse for those who dont even pvp and get pk'd every damn day by the same 2-3 idiots
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
One of the things here is that there are other ideas for systems to handle coi-ganks etc.
The GMs also implemented the combination use of potion of blindness (can be purchased in Ivory Tower) and floating eye meat. This will allow you to see where invisible targets by seeing the circle of where they'd be standing, in the darkness.
Grind on!
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Most of us are happy with the current exp loss system, why change it? Just because a few rich kids are bored doesn't mean we should change the exp loss system... it's been working fine for a long time now, why fix something that isn't broke?
Rudy | Sentinel | Consular
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Increasing EXP loss in PVP will only encourage griefing and not actual PvP. Lineage was designed with this EXP loss table for a reason. Its bad enough we have dual pink and low chance to drop items when chao here. Theres literally no risk to going red on this server.
Increasing EXP loss in PVE makes no sense either as people only die when they A: Are woefully uprepared for an area. Which hardly ever happens. B: Disconnect. or C: Fighting a boss with a onehit mechanic.
This isn't supposed to be a custom server. EXP/Death penalty is part of something being custom.
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Lineage was designed with an EXP loss table of a fixed rate for ALL levels. the one we have right now isn't scaled correctly lol.
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
It seems that this Will be the thread to discuss about deaths, so with your permision I repeat my post about link de XP loss to the number of kills, but before that:
To Kern & info to all: **I didn't say nothing a about reset kill points in the previous post. This should be if the GM decide to implement something like that, another step to discuss because many people don't want a reset in their pk count, so the fair will be give the people te option in the firsts 2 weeks to choose to reset or no their pk counts. Because If I know that I'm going to be in the max kill points and I accept the xp penalty, it's ok for me mantain the kill points as the hard work on previous months. Other option is start the penalty count with the deaths since XXX day, but then we need stablish a option to see the players how many post change kills you have. So kern please change in the poll the "pk count should be reset" to "with improvements on pk count" because many people can vote other options just beause they don't want his pk count reseted**
About the poll: it's a great idea start with five options, but we should do more polls later reducing the options, because many people now can choose an option that if it's discarded later, make them choose another option. Example: I choose Penalty on kills, but I know than this not will be implemented, then I want to choose X option like no changes before flat penalty.
How you are going to check there is no trolling in the poll abusing of multiple accounts by the same man?
Previous post about link xp loss to number of kills:
It's not fair increase now the xp loss. Specially because not all the people has 100h a week to play, doing an increase of the xp loss only benefits hardcore players that casually are the more than do pvp and the ones that kill more people.
As example in last week I only leveled a 6% of lvl 75+ so it's for players like me increase the xp loss is only a way to kick me of the server.
On the other side is not fair for the ones that needed months to level and still leveling or increasing his game experience and now you say that you change that.
The xp loss on this server always has been the same and it's linked to the time you need to get back the xp, so you need put the same time at level 50 or at level 75, again if you change that you only benefit high level players.
Anyways I have a suggestion, the problem is always the same the "pvp players" that want more penaltyes or want to get more rewarded for kills his enemyes so my suggestion:
- Increase your xp loss linked to your number of kills. More kills more xp loss by death.
This way more pvp you do more pvp risk you take, then if you kill your enemy, that usually is someone that does a lot of pvp too, he will get punished.
This will help too to avoid freepk, because people will not increase freely his pk count doing coi ganks, cause the high you have more xp you gonna loose by death.
EDIT:
I have been thinking in this all the morning, more I think better sounds, so I'm going to develope a bit the idea of link the xp loss to the number of kills:
1) if the people stay out the pvp they have the same sistem as now in xp, so for they it's not a punitive sistem, and they need to value what they want. If you want to level to do PvE because you don't have much time a week for play, with a sistem where u get punished when your kill count get increased, you can choose stay out of pvp and you'll be fine in this case you will not be a problem for the pvp players.
2) As soon as you get high levels and you are going to need fight to start getting high end items your pvp count will slowly start increasing, so your xp loss on dies will slowly start increasing too, sounds fair, then when you get a true pvp player with a high count of kills if you die you are going to lose a lot of xp, then being killed by your enemyes or die doing PvE will be a real punish.
3) It has to be limited but have a progression.
Ex:
Player A: Kill count: 0 increased xp loss on die: 0 --> Each die equals to 5min in gp (It's a example I don't remember how much time u need now)
Player B: Kill Count: 1 to 3 increased xp loss on die: x2 --> Each die equals to 10min in gp
Player C: Kill Count: 4 to 7 Increased xp on die: x3 --> Each die equals to 15min in gp
....
Player X: Kill Count 20+ Increased xp on die: MAX equal to a 1h hunting in gp
Player Z: Kill Count 100+ Increased xp on die: MAX equal to a 1h hunting in gp
(Again this is a example of my idea the time of 1h as death penalty or 10 min are just to develope, if by any way people likes the idea, next step is discuss where we put the lines)
4) People will not increase freely they player kills counts, then they will evaluate if they do coi ganks, or noob killing.
5) Sieges need be outside of this sistem, so as I suggested in a previous post, it would be great if inside siege area you not have xp loss and teleport scrolls/spells are dissabled, this way people will need fight until death if they go sieges, even you can disable chao dropping inside siege area, this way people in siege will fight until death without regrets, and this will make new ways to teamplay (protect the less hp characters, do squads blah blah)
I see this as a good sistem to get all people happy, no broken the balance, and allow newplayers to level with justice versus old players, and it's a sistem that works like lineage usually does.
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
I feel that the low experience loss allows players to conduct themselves in a manner the game was not designed.
Example - people Chao making people with their alt character's (cougar mages/ boss hunting characters)
They lose nothing , it takes much longer to make your character lawful than for them to gain back the experience lost from their action and the person who is now chaotic either has to deal with the chance of dropping items or has to leave the boss area to law up. People are trying use time constraints as a reason for less exp loss but what about the lawful that needs to be made from Chao making? Chao maker suffers no real penalty and the killer now needs to law up and that could take several days depending on how much time you have to play (I personally had my cougar mage chaotic for over 2 weeks cause I only had time in my day to do boss runs and id rather do that than lawful up the character) .
Example 2 - boss contention , this happens all the time while I do enjoy the pvp aspect (favorite part of doing boss ;) ). I fight people on 100f toi they bring 3-5 people I fight them alone they end up dying 3-5 times each but they just res and continue to try and contest. They literally lose nothing and are able to just burn your supplies over time . I do not think the game should reward people for being incapable of playing the game properly and allow for penalty free interactions like these. In the end I'm investing my time and effort when fighting large groups alone you need some sort of deterrent or they'll just pouring out the wood work.
I feel the only people that are supporting to maintain the current experience loss are the people that are exploiting this penalty free aspect of the game which was never meant to be part of this game. It's supposed to HURT to die, no one cares here it's meaningless .
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
It takes like 3ish hours to gain 1% at 77. It takes like 1.5 hours to gain 1% at 76. If you die at either of those levels and lose, say 5%, you've probably lost days of playtime.
Sure, that might feel really good for the guy who killed you, or whatever, but if I come on and die, let's say to a DC, I've probably wiped out an entire week of playtime. It will quickly become safer to not play than to play. That's a bad scenario in general, and it is intensely frustrating.
As far as PVP goes, it will quickly become more likely I'll show up to a fight on a level 70 alt I don't care about than on my 75+ character. It will quickly become likely that I won't even try to fight on a main character because it won't be worth the risk.
The only thing increasing the exp loss on death does, is encourage coi ganks and other griefing pvp activities which are exactly the kind no one really enjoys being the victim of. It also encourages people not to hunt dangerous things on high-level characters, which was super common on live. People had backup characters they used for dragons they didn't care about.
It will definitely only take a few instances of dying at high level, especially if you delevel, before you will just decide to go do something else. The reason a lot of players tolerate it now is because it is relatively low cost, even if it is still annoying.
Everyone keeps talking about how coi gank is fixed because of blinding pot/eye meat, and it sure helps a lot, but the fact that it still comes up means it's a problem, and increasing the exp loss that happens when this occurs is no doubt going to make those players want to play much, much less.
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Aden church cost 530k to buy back at level 77, just checked :)
fyi kill pts should just be removed altogether lol . Doesn’t affect anything but ego. Go count your /checkpk instead like what everyone actually does from NA
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Am I the only one who feels like the combination of removing kill counts and increasing experience loss would actually reduce pvp? All of a sudden, the only "reward" for pvp is schadenfreude, so you’re going to have more and more people just running away from pvp situations. There are lots of people who don't take pleasure in others' misfortunes.
Nevertheless, if there had to be a change, I vote for increasing exp loss based on kill count. That way, people who do not pvp much (or just die a ton in pvp and don't kill) are punished less. Incentivizes hunting highly ranked players.
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
EXP loss plays an important roll in both PvE and PvP. Dying shouldn't be a trivial matter, players should feel some anxiety in PvP or when doing bosses that they may be set back by dying. The current exp loss feels completely meaningless so no one cares if they die in PvP or on a boss.
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Thank you for giving us a say, GMs. I appreciate your dedication.
I feel the “flat value” option is vaguely worded and can be confused by voters. Does this mean flat experience points? Or flat percentage? As in we all lose 20000 xp. Or we all lose 3%. It’s very important that this is clarified as it can skew the results and it has the opposite meaning. Also, people with multiple accounts voting? Is it possible to check IP?
I feel that changing this now gives advantage t players who could get through to endgame content without worry about death. They are geared and experienced now and the new players will feel a lot more pain when they try to access endgame content now, especially when they have to pvp the people who are already at the top. New players will die more. There will be a lot more xp/adena loss for new 75 players who want to get the end game drops which means a lot more time required than the people before them. This only widens the gap and will discourage new pledges who want to make the jump to endgame when they encounter elite pledges. I feel that changing this after a year will have an undesired effect of widening the gap between day 1 and new 70+ players. It will also discourage pvp. If there can be a way to stop resurrection on new boss content I would think that is a better option. I am about to enter the part of the game where I will have to fight for drops. If I have to go back to GP to level every other day it’s going to massively slow my progress compared to what the people before me had to do. I can’t see this being inclusive of new players looking to make the transition to endgame content.
Thank you for your time!
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Don’t worry about multiple account votes, I tried before for siege castle votes lol , gm told me to stop. We’re not able to do it here xD
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Re: POLL: Experience Loss on Death
Exp loss should be minimum 5%.
Maybe like 10% before lv75 and 5% after lv75