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DE balance
DE's are noticably the weakest melee class, and starting one seems to put you at a major disadvantage. Is there a anyway we can balance them to be more viable?
I fight for the rights of all dark skinned elfs.
#DE'sMatter
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Re: DE balance
https://l1justice.com/lineage/database/skills/112/
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Re: DE balance
You cannot possible think that 8 second skill is what makes up the gap?
Knights get CB and Stun, braves, on top of that access to AOE weapons.
All those items aside, I did a test last night, and a 45 knight with modest equipment and starting 2hb was able to beat out a 52de with a +9kedo. The knight would have to be asleep at the wheel to get taken by a de.
Now let’s cut to the chase where you say "then make a knight" and that’s well and good, i was hoping to open a better dialog.
Royal: 7 || Knight: 26 || Elf: 17 || Wizard: 28 Dark Elf: 3 || Dragon Knight: 5 || Illu: 4
This sort of tells the tale of the difference in power levels. 3des to 26 knights... This isn’t just a class preference, there is a substantial difference in power levels.
I fight for the rights of all dark skinned elfs.
#DE'sMatter
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Re: DE balance
I started a knight yesterday :p
By the way, I have to run a test set of 100 tries, but pretty sure stun resist doesn't work properly on Stun shock.
Will post some results.
Also, that Armor Break can't land on NPCs is a huge impairment. If developers want my opinion, is the same issue as with erase.
Erase was abused with paralyze to cheese a lot of bosses. In the original code, only dragons identified by their own ID were immune to erase.
Same as armor break, or other spells. There should be a flag to determine if a NPC is immune to certain spell.
Same goes for Counter Mirror. All bosses are immune to it... Rendering the spell useless vs (all)bosses and PvE.
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Re: DE balance
Hey Eric,
Thank you for the comment, but did you have an actual suggestion or just an observation/question? The current DE model, they are extremely powerful when landing AB on their targets at a higher level.I realize, that waiting to get AB sucks .. but the problem that we face, is making them stronger before AB lands would make them overpowered and completely unstoppable moreso when they get AB. We are always open to discussion and suggestions, just needs to be planned and thoughtout with small incremental changes so as to not tip the power too far in one direction. I would rather make things slowly better, then have to nerf a class and upset players because we messed up balancing.
Additionally, the Ronde Edo is on test server as an AOE weapon waiting to be tested before going live. I've had only 1 person test it and provide any sort of feedback.
Edit - Darkjustice the stun resist 100% works. I ran some tests with someone on test server, where i outputted the stun % chance, and the probability decrease/increase via a message similar to -dmg on output. We were able to confirm everything worked as intended.
GM Charles - Global Admin & Developer - Server / Website
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Re: DE balance
Charles,
Thank you for your feedback. I apologize for not offering up viable changes to make, I first wanted to identify that there was an issue before offering a solution.
I suppose you are already addressing a pve issue (lack of aoe, similar to the knights wind axe/spear) This will help a lot in the pve aspect. I will be sure to test out the Ronde edo on the test server, I did not know that was in development.
Should de's get a Brave type pot?
I would like to suggest, since you have already stated that AB is what makes the class powerful, that we increase the duration from the 8-seconds to longer, along the same durations as uncanny, and double break. (192seconds) They have similar MP requirements and materials. (2 darkstones) My reasoning is that AB can be used for PVE in this case which will make DE's more attractive. The added duration does not influnce pvp, so the balance will remain the same there.
I believe this is a good balance, expessially when you add up the cost of darkstones for buffs vs other classes and their consumables.
(+10k for 192 seconds) without AB
10K per 8 seconds on AB if it was to be used for hunting.
Again thank you for taking the time to read my posts, I may not know the best way to address these issues, but hopfully we can find a solution.
I fight for the rights of all dark skinned elfs.
#DE'sMatter
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Re: DE balance
removing dark stone costs from buffing is a possibility and making ronde edo aoe is a step in the right direction. dark elves are much better here than you give them credit for. winter spear needs to be buffed to near wind axe since it just left prince far behind
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Re: DE balance
A 45 knight with "modest equipment" will not beat a 52 DE with 9kedo. Please define what "modest equipment" is to you, because to me a level 45 knight will never be able to achieve enough gear to beat a 52 dark elf if they are both new players. Balance should be made based on end game and maybe some adjustments for the path there, not for complete new players.
I agree that DE isn't as strong overall as Knight mainly due to stun, but if you look at it that way then DK is also useless because it doesn't have stun even though DK has absurdly high damage output which far exceeds Knight and is comparable to a Knight with Fid sword (on DK using easily crafted chain sword).
In my opinion every class is secondary after Elf, Mage, and Knight. The rest of the classes are just luxuries on top of what is required to kill players. If you just want to do damage then play DK because they are ridiculous on this server even with +7 chain sword. DE is good damage output with the support ability of increasing damage of other melees via armor break. People can die through immune with armor break.
Same story with Illusionist being high damage output and good support. There are few players maining Illusinoist but that number alone doesn't tell the story of their strength in this server. They are still a luxury class to me, which is why you see more people playing Elf, Mage, and Knight.
Also, Dark Elf will soon have Ronde Edoryu buffed to be a viable AOE weapon.
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Re: DE balance
I thoroughly enjoy productive and well thought out posts like these from the community where everyones perspective paints the full picture. They benefit us all to a great extent and allow us to make tweaks in key areas as needed throughout the life of the server.
GM Charles - Global Admin & Developer - Server / Website
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Re: DE balance
Charles,
If you and your staff decide on a path to take for the DE, would you please update this posting so we can see what's in store?
Thank you,
I fight for the rights of all dark skinned elfs.
#DE'sMatter
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Re: DE balance
"I would like to suggest, since you have already stated that AB is what makes the class powerful, that we increase the duration from the 8-seconds to longer, along the same durations as uncanny, and double break. (192seconds) They have similar MP requirements and materials. (2 darkstones) My reasoning is that AB can be used for PVE in this case which will make DE's more attractive. The added duration does not influnce pvp, so the balance will remain the same there."
That is the most ridiculous suggestion I have heard yet. I don't think you understand how AB works at all, it's not a buff that boosts your own damage by 58%, it's a debuff that apply's to an enemy. and AB increases ALL melee damage by 58% and not just the DE's? Having that last beyond 8 seconds would be absolutely insane.
I've said it before and I will repeat it here again. DE's don't need top end crit damage modified, they are in a great spot right now with AB in that regard. I've eaten 550+ dmg edo crits from Virus. Seems pretty good. What they do need is their low end hits brought up higher (aka the minimum roll). Swinging in the 30's with a 10 kedo is rough. If you brought that up to ~55-60 on the low end and kept the max crit where it is at now you would solve a lot of the problem.
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Re: DE balance
I agree on the low end crit. However theres no way you've eaten 550+ crits from Virus because the max crit on the char is 400 with AB on.
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Re: DE balance
Despise I had my confrontations with Shitcoins. I have to admit that the player has solid arguments. Irrelevant if I agree or disagree to them.
Mage, elf, knight.
The rest are luxuries in PvP.
DE is fair balanced PvP. On similar level with AB, he destroys elves and mages. That is 2/3 of the main classes.
Like it is now, It is better to land a stun rather to land a AB. Because, the only thing that kills are stuns. And I rather have an enemy snared than with AB if I was melee.
Adding AoE to Edo ronde is per se awesome.
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Re: DE balance
Increase AB duration would be ridiculous, increasing the land rate of AB would be a much better option. As far as AB in PVE it was that way previously but apparently people abused it by ABing dragons?
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Re: DE balance
I will admit fault that I did not know that AB was a targetable skill. I thought it was a buff to do 1.58*damage. This doesnt make things better but worst. As you are spending resoruces (10K+ a try) to land a debuff that is only worth 8 seconds of enchanced damage. Plus it cannot be used in PVE. No other classes require such steep resources to preform similar functions. IE (erase, stun, cancel) However my main focus is not only pvp but the PVE aspects as well.
I agree with "aftershock" maybe i am looking at the issue in the wrong way. Maybe what needs to be improved is the lower-end damage and not the higher end. A +10 b-kedo is about as end game as you can get with DE, the damages should reflect that.
Would the idea of a new weapon edo that does a stun proc be out of the question?
I fight for the rights of all dark skinned elfs.
#DE'sMatter